Heaven or Earth

[humbleservant]

With all my years of bible study, I have never come across any scriptures that state this as a definite teaching in God's word. There are however many scriptures that clearly say that God's Kingdom will be "on the earth", & that the "New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven to be ON the earth".

So my question is, "If this is so easily understood, where are the scriptures to prove it?"
BTW, I'm not stirring the pot, it's just that with my study over the last two years, that some things are becoming very obvious, that we have been misled by Babylon for centuries, & need to take another look at many docrtrines that we now hold as beliefs.

Ion

[RR]

Well, my studies have shown that the only thing that babylon has misled many on is the teaching that ALL Christians go to heaven, the other extreme is that everyone lives on earth. I believe there is balance. If you wish to discuss it further, start a new thread in the appropiate section.

[kd]

Why it got to the idea that a number of people will go to heaven?

  Because that is the way God planned it. God's original plan for man has not changed. Man will live on the earth forever ... BUT .... He has also planned for a certain amount of humans to partake of the divine nature.

RR

RR,

Ironically, I was going to ask a similar question regarding the teaching of "going to heaven".

With all my years of bible study, I have never come across any scriptures that state this as a definite teaching in God's word. There are however many scriptures that clearly say that God's Kingdom will be "on the earth", & that the "New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven to be ON the earth".

So my question is, "If this is so easily understood, where are the scriptures to prove it?"
BTW, I'm not stirring the pot, it's just that with my study over the last two years, that some things are becoming very obvious, that we have been misled by Babylon for centuries, & need to take another look at many docrtrines that we now hold as beliefs.

Ion

'Going to Heaven'
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
1 John 3:12 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
Even looking at only these two scriptures it would seem clear that the 144,000 'go to heaven' and/or have a spiritual resurrection to the divine nature, the same nature our Lord now possesses.

So my question is, "If this is so easily understood, where are the scriptures to prove it?"

I wouldn't say the scriptures are easily understood at all by nominal christendom including the concept of 'going to heaven'.  And that is not surprising considering these scriptures.
Mathew 13:10,11And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mathew 13:13Therefore speak I to them in parable: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.Mark 4:11-12And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables 12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
kd

[humbleservant]

KD, thank's for your reply.

There is one problem though, how do you prove from any of the scriptures that you quoted, that the anointed are "going to heaven". None of these verses say that, or for that matter imlpy it either, as you need to read something into the verses that isn't there, to get that understanding.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are.

BTW, I fully understand the purpose of parables, I'm not a newcomer to the scriptures.

Ion

[kd]

KD, thank's for your reply.

There is one problem though, how do you prove from any of the scriptures that you quoted, that the anointed are "going to heaven". None of these verses say that, or for that matter imlpy it either, as you need to read something into the verses that isn't there, to get that understanding.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are.

BTW, I fully understand the purpose of parables, I'm not a newcomer to the scriptures.

Ion

What are you asking for for proof?  In order to understand these two scriptures that to me clearly indicate the nature of the 144,000, I have to first believe that the Lamb is 'in heaven'.  I'm not saying that if I were a newcomer to bible study and I read these two scriptures that I'd instantly understand the meaning.  Again, not sure what proof you are specifically asking for.   How do you interpret these scriptures? 

Also, my reason for including the parable scriptures was to indicate the method and the reason why things are not always stated clearly in the Bible.  By the way, where is your proof that I was thinking that you are a newcomer to the scriptures?   Was it implied?  
kd
ps...I know you are not a newcomer to bible study.....so not sure why you felt you had to inform me, but ok, I already knew that.   

[humbleservant]

KD, thank's for your reply.

There is one problem though, how do you prove from any of the scriptures that you quoted, that the anointed are "going to heaven". None of these verses say that, or for that matter imlpy it either, as you need to read something into the verses that isn't there, to get that understanding.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are.

BTW, I fully understand the purpose of parables, I'm not a newcomer to the scriptures.

Ion

What are you asking for for proof?  In order to understand these two scriptures that to me clearly indicate the nature of the 144,000, I have to first believe that the Lamb is 'in heaven'.  I'm not saying that if I were a newcomer to bible study and I read these two scriptures that I'd instantly understand the meaning.  Again, not sure what proof you are specifically asking for.   How do you interpret these scriptures? 

Also, my reason for including the parable scriptures was to indicate the method and the reason why things are not always stated clearly in the Bible.  By the way, where is your proof that I was thinking that you are a newcomer to the scriptures?   Was it implied?  
kd
ps...I know you are not a newcomer to bible study.....so not sure why you felt you had to inform me, but ok, I already knew that.   

KD, all I'm asking for are scriptures that show the anointed will be in heaven, I thought that was self explanetary. I'm not challenging your beliefs, just asking for the scriptures to support why each one believes this.

You must have overlooked the following quote from my last post;

"Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are."

BTW, I have never said that the Lord was not risen & seated beside His Father in Heaven.

Ion

[kd]

KD, thank's for your reply.

There is one problem though, how do you prove from any of the scriptures that you quoted, that the anointed are "going to heaven". None of these verses say that, or for that matter imlpy it either, as you need to read something into the verses that isn't there, to get that understanding.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are.

BTW, I fully understand the purpose of parables, I'm not a newcomer to the scriptures.

Ion

What are you asking for for proof?  In order to understand these two scriptures that to me clearly indicate the nature of the 144,000, I have to first believe that the Lamb is 'in heaven'.  I'm not saying that if I were a newcomer to bible study and I read these two scriptures that I'd instantly understand the meaning.  Again, not sure what proof you are specifically asking for.   How do you interpret these scriptures? 

Also, my reason for including the parable scriptures was to indicate the method and the reason why things are not always stated clearly in the Bible.  By the way, where is your proof that I was thinking that you are a newcomer to the scriptures?   Was it implied?  
kd
ps...I know you are not a newcomer to bible study.....so not sure why you felt you had to inform me, but ok, I already knew that.   

KD, all I'm asking for are scriptures that show the anointed will be in heaven, I thought that was self explanetary. I'm not challenging your beliefs, just asking for the scriptures to support why each one believes this.

You must have overlooked the following quote from my last post;

"Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are."

BTW, I have never said that the Lord was not risen & seated beside His Father in Heaven.

Ion

OK.  Yes, I understand that is what you are looking for and I guess my thought is that that is what I was providing even if it was only the two scriptures.  But apparently the scriptures I quoted are not proof according to you or at least sufficient proof.  And I'm not suggesting that you are challenging my belief either, I actually didn't think that.  Perhaps my posts are coming across too aggressively cuz honest I'm just trying to add my two bits worth.

Anyhow, maybe you can explain to me how those two scriptures do not imply that the 144,000 are not the same as the Lamb or in the same place as the Lamb.   I'm confused.  Perhaps I came onto this thread a little late and I'm missing something Cuz, I know you did not say that the Lord was not risen, I saw that in your previous post.  So I am a tad confused here.  I could be missing something.  That is possible, though rare. lol     So again, what kind of scriptural proof are you looking for?

Thanks, 
kd

[bro tom]

KD, thank's for your reply.

There is one problem though, how do you prove from any of the scriptures that you quoted, that the anointed are "going to heaven". None of these verses say that, or for that matter imlpy it either, as you need to read something into the verses that isn't there, to get that understanding.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't, I'm asking for scriptural proof to show that they are.

BTW, I fully understand the purpose of parables, I'm not a newcomer to the scriptures.

Ion

Hello Brother Ion,
 Rev 19:1 clearly tells us that the great multitude is in heaven.  This scene also describes the 24 elders and 4 living creatures being present,  This same scene is described in Rev 7 in which the 144,000 are also present.  Therefore we have the Great Multitude, the 144,000, the 24 Elders and the 4 living creatures all present in heaven.  I believe it was you two years ago that shared this with a new member to the forum.

Bro Tom

[humbleservant]

KD, my concern is that Revelation is written in symbolic language, so when John saw by means of visions, this does not mean that it's actually portraying where the anointed will serve.

To illustrate my point, Rev.11:19; "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail."

Would it be plausible to think that the "Ark of the Covenant is actually in heaven, OR that there will be an "earthquake in heaven?"

The other thing that many forget is that being a symbolic book, perhaps the heavens here refered too may be the "heavens & earth" as expressed in 2 Pet3:10;
10 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

We know for a fact that this is not the literal heavens & earth that are going to be destroyed.

Ion

[humbleservant]

Hello Brother Ion,
 Rev 19:1 clearly tells us that the great multitude is in heaven.  This scene also describes the 24 elders and 4 living creatures being present,  This same scene is described in Rev 7 in which the 144,000 are also present.  Therefore we have the Great Multitude, the 144,000, the 24 Elders and the 4 living creatures all present in heaven.  I believe it was you two years ago that shared this with a new member to the forum.

Bro Tom

You are correct Bro Tom, this is what I stated about a year ago now. As I've asked several times now are for specific scriptures to point to the heavens as the  place where the anointed will be taken to, so far there haven't been any verses that supply this clearly.

Ion

[WildernessVoice]

There are plenty of scriptures which speak of the heavenly kingdom, and our reward in heaven.  Here are a few examples.

Mat 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Heb 10:34  For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


Are these scriptures not direct enough?

WV

[bro tom]

Hello Brother Ion,
 Rev 19:1 clearly tells us that the great multitude is in heaven.  This scene also describes the 24 elders and 4 living creatures being present,  This same scene is described in Rev 7 in which the 144,000 are also present.  Therefore we have the Great Multitude, the 144,000, the 24 Elders and the 4 living creatures all present in heaven.  I believe it was you two years ago that shared this with a new member to the forum.

Bro Tom

You are correct Bro Tom, this is what I stated about a year ago now. As I've asked several times now are for specific scriptures to point to the heavens as the  place where the anointed will be taken to, so far there haven't been any verses that supply this clearly.

Ion

If the 144000 are in heaven, isnt that clear?  Or are you saying that you are not convinced that the 144000 represent the Church?

Bro Tom

[martyd]

the emphatic diaglot and the kingdom interlinear state at rev.5;10 that the 144k will reign ON or UPON the earth.how can we explain this one away?

[bro tom]

the emphatic diaglot and the kingdom interlinear state at rev.5;10 that the 144k will reign ON or UPON the earth.how can we explain this one away?

To reign over or upon a particular location does not require being at that location. Kings reigned over countries they never even seen, but had their representatives present.  The fact that We see the 144,000 present in heaven with the Great Multitude, is not contradictory to Rev 5:10.  The ancient Worthies represent them on earth.  I really don't see any difficulty with finding harmony here.  

Bro Tom

[RR]

Why not put all the chips on the table Ion. Do you deny the Parousia (e.g. the inviisible presence of Jesus) for a physical one on earth? Do you now see Jesus and the Church ruling on earth from Jerusalem? How do you see the reign?