JW's and Jesus Christ

[Dupin]

Thank you for the reminder to be friendly here. Eva:

The Bible does tell us that we are to set others straight in a "spirit of mildness" (Gal. 6:1).  Of course that's assuming that we are "spiritual," the qualification set out in the verse.  The problem here seems to be a that our JW friends are trying to justify emphasizing Jehovah over Jesus because "Jehovah is the savior."  They quote quite  few verses from the OT to that effect. I will humbly add what I haven't seen any pull out of the hat yet the fact that Jesus' very name means "Jehovah is the savior."  so ultimately salvation comes from Jehovah as any Bible Student will admit.

But here is the problem and why the emphasis is really wrong.  It is not in accord with the arrangement that Jehovah set up for the Gospel age.  RR has already quoted one of the passages which bears on the matter to wit:

"be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11  He is the stone which was set at nought of you the builders, which was made the head of the corner.  12  And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved. Acts 4:10-12

This was addressed to the Jewish leaders of the Apostle's day and was a declaration of God's new arrangement in which salvation was through Jesus, whom paid the price through his blood and suffering for mankind.  He, along with the 144,000 will be the judges of who may benefit from that ransom, so he is mankind's savior and salvation comes from him.  Thus:

For this very reason (That he humbled himself and died by crucifixion to pay the price for humankind) also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name which is above every [other] name so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground.  (Phil. 2:9-10)

  First insertion my comment.

Paul seems here with his comment on "those under the ground" to be speaking of humanity, that all knees would "bend," an act usually associated with fealty or even worship, in the name of Jesus and not the father, Jehovah.  For all you quote so many verses from the OT about God being the savior that is mainly in his role as the heavenly husband of Israel.  Check it out in context that's what you get. All of those verses are addressed to Israel.  In the Gospel age and through the Millennial Kingdom God's arrangement is that all should look to Jesus for their salvation (John 3:14-15). 

We acknowledge Jehovah's part in the his plan and his role as sovereign who has turned that authority over to Jesus and the bride for a short time to accomplish their part in his plan.  He is the ultimate sovereign and savior.  However, we must follow the scriptures and follow his arrangements.  He is, after all, the source of his own plan and to follow it is ultimately obedience to Jehovah.  That is why we do bend our knees to the name of Jesus and can't help but notice that JWs are doing so less and less as time goes on.

Dupin

[bible question]

Hi Dupin;

Check my previous post,through Jesus. John 14:6,17:3.  Which one is the true God? Which one is Not God, but we have to go through?  Eva, I am playing nice.

[Dupin]

Actually BQ.

Your post didn't really make any sense.  And in any event it doesn't disprove what I wrote.  Even one of the  verses you cited pointing me to it, John 14:6, helps make the case I state.
Dupin

[bible question]

To Dupin;

Post 39 I used John 17:3 and John 14:6. Only way to the Father throught Jesus.  Acts 8:27,"He had gone to Jerusalem to worship."  Who was this Ethiopian worshipping?  Jehovah?  Or something else? Well he was reading in Isaiah.  And in that chapter the name Jehovah is mentioned three times.  He then learned the good news about Jesus and what happened after that?  39,"When they had come up out of the water, Jehovah's spirit quickly led Philip away."

Did the Bible somewhere say he should quit worshipping Jehovah?  That all they should talk about was Jesus. Who's spirit was involved? Jehovah's? Jesus?  1838,1846,1855,1867,1853,1858, are some dates where others translated Jehovah.

Luke 11:20,"But if it is by means of God's finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken you."   Ex 8:19; Mat 12:28. So lets make this easy to understand.

Jehovah has the lawn mower.  Like a father today he gives it to his son to use and the son uses it.  Jesus was probaly using it many,many times,but it was Jehovah's spirit.

[RR]

Did the Bible somewhere say he should quit worshipping Jehovah?  That all they should talk about was Jesus.

No, because the Bible here was just the Old Testament, there was no New Testament. So they only knew Jehovah as the Savior. However, I'm sure upon further investigation, this Ethiopian would come to see that "there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12). Why? Because, "all power is given unto [Jesus] in heaven and in earth (Matt. 28:18). That is why Jesus says in Acts 1:8 "ye shall be witnesses unto me"

RR

[Dupin]

What is interesting here:

Is that you keep constructing straw-men arguments BQ.  For instance you exaggerate my position by asking the question "Did the Bible somewhere say he should quit worshipping Jehovah?"  In doing so you are constructing a caricature of my view and attributing by implication that to be my view.  That is a classic strawman where the debater constructs an inaccurate characterization of his or her opponent and proceeds to knock it down instead of dealing with the other person's real position.   you may think it a rhetorical device, but it isn't it is a logical fallacy.

However, in answer to that question, No, the Bible does not say we are to stop worshiping Jehovah.  And I guarantee you every Bible Student will agree with my answer.  However, as I've pointed out from the scriptures God has given his son, Jesus, a position of honor far above any other creation because of his loyalty under circumstance hard to imagine and has ordered that the son be given due honor by every human being in his due time.  As new creature true Christians are required to do so now.  That does not mean we do not worship Jehovah God, far from it. 

Dupin

[eva]

BQ Hi,
My rhetoric question still is What are the good news, that is The Gospel ? And it's not a joke.

[eva]

Paul's letter to the Romans was directed at the Romans, not the Jews.  Remember, in Paul's day the Romans didn't approve of Christians either, so the Orthodox Jews were not the only opponents to the Gospel.

WV, thank you for this reply. Of course it was directed to the Romans. I'm not always careful in what I say, to be exact ... I was really thinking of Romans chapter 10 which seems to be directed to the Jews being zealous but without knowledge and not accepting the Gospel.

[StvAce]

Hi Neighbours,

The whole purpose of Christ being sent to die for mankind was for mankind - earthly - to gain at-one-ment with the Heavenly Father, Jehovah, again.

Jesus Christ is the mediator between God, Jehovah, and men - the mediator of a New Covenant.

[bible question]

To Eva;

Would being able to get eternal life be mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures?  If yes, would that also be good news?

[eva]

I'll try this one : (Thanks to ALL of you, I'm learning SOO much in YOUR company )
To BQ : Yep ! God is holy , he is immortal, he has offered eternal life in creating Adam in His image. Adam was not created immortal.
Everlasting life at that time was no news at all. It was it he written promise of The only Living God himself to his people written in the books . We know the story, the first written testament had to be redone cause unfaithfulness. So we got The Gospel, how privileged we are ! And we've got the letters of the apostles and the Revelation.
To BQ - The possibility to live forever seems to be forever good news ! To reason just simply - it seems somehow to be a permanent wish and desire of God's creation. Although thrown out of Eden, we are still created in the image of God: who can be more permanent than Him ? The adamic prophecy seems to contain ALL, salvation and restitution. The prophesies concerning the coming of Messiah includes the hope of eternal life. Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Ki. 2:11) were taken directly by God not suffering death. Abraham and Job believed God could perform a resurrection at His chosen moment.
What about Daniel : Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

As the Hebrews did not expect to go to "heaven" I suppose and believe that the word living a life everlasting meant to them a body of flesh and blood and living would be on earth. So also a resurrection to a new life as Adam had initially.

But BQ; you KNOW all this already .... For us now these teachings are good news, God has provided for ALL, by His Love, so all are offered benefits of His love , in due time.

See "The Highway" in Pastor Russell's The Divine Plan of the Ages, study 6, see the teaching conc Isaiah 53 copied and pasted below:


Isaiah:53 (Darby)
3 Strengthen the weak hands and confirm the tottering knees.
)my italics because I find it so a beautiful text)
4 Say to them that are of a timid heart, Be strong, fear not; behold your God: vengeance cometh, the recompense of God! He will come himself, and save you.

8 (NIV)
And a highway will be there;
    it will be called the Way of Holiness;
    it will be for those who walk on that Way.
The unclean will not journey on it;
    wicked fools will not go about on it.

10 (CJB)
Those ransomed by Adonai will return
and come with singing to Tziyon,
on their heads will be everlasting joy.
They will acquire gladness and joy,
while sorrow and sighing will flee.

"the new order of things in the age to come is to be entirely different. As a different hope is held out, so also a different way leads to it. The way to immortality has been a way which required the sacrifice of the otherwise lawful and proper hopes, ambitions and desires--the sacrifice forever of the human nature. But the way to human perfection, to restitution, the hope of the world, requires only the putting away of sin: not the sacrifice of human rights and privileges, but their proper enjoyment. It will lead to personal purification and restoration to the image of God as enjoyed by Adam before sin entered the world.

The way back to actual human perfection is to be made very plain and easy; so plain that none may mistake the way; so plain that "the wayfaring man, and those unacquainted therewith, shall not go astray" (Isa. 35:8--Leeser); so plain that none will need to teach his neighbor, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know the Lord from the least unto the greatest. (Jer. 31:34) Instead of being a narrow way that few can find, it is termed "a highway," a public roadway-- "

                     

[eva]

Dupin : I have noticed some JW's preaching their message. I'm not being unfriendly by saying this, they can put the time on their FS sheet.
True that things have to be straightend up. I'm not good in discussions, only talking and sharing. Might the you guys do the rest ! For sure I'm learning a lot !

[Broken2]

Dupin : I have noticed some JW's preaching their message. I'm not being unfriendly by saying this, they can put the time on their FS sheet.
True that things have to be straightend up. I'm not good in discussions, only talking and sharing. Might the you guys do the rest ! For sure I'm learning a lot !

Your presence here is a blessing to us all my sister.

[bible question]

To Eva;

Thank you for your reply. To let you know, none of this is counted on my report of FS as you call it.  You might be interested in getting the CD of the 40 years of the WT during Pastor Russell's time.  You will see many places of where reports were sent in.  Example,WT,March 26,1889 339 meeting places, 2,501 particpants at the Memorial of Christ's death.
The early Christian had reports and sometimes not good. 2 Cor 6:8,"through bad report and good report."   1 Cor 5:1,"Actually fornication is reported among you."  Acts 16:2,"and he was well reported on by the brothers in Lystra and Iconium."
There are many more accounts of this in the Bible and I hope this helps you get a more clear picture . My next post will deal with eternal life.

[bible question]

To Eva;

There are a few different places where Jesus was asked about eternal life.  I am sharing this one because it has a different twist.  Luke 10:25-28,"Now look! a certain man versed in the Law rose up, to test him out, and said: "Teacher, by doing what shall I inherit everlasting life?" He said to him:What is written in the Law? How do you read?" In answer he said: "'You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strenght and with your whole mind ,and, your neighbor as yourself.'" He said to him: "You answered correctly;'keep on doing this and you will get life."
That man worshipped Jehovah and new what the Law taught, and Jesus knew if one does that they will get everlasting life. So when that man is resurrected he will continue to the end of the 1000 years and no doubt prove himself faithful and receive everlasting life. Why not heaven for him?  Jesus did not ask him to come be my follower did he?