Bible Student / Jehovah's Witness Schism

[RR]

The following was posted on the BSM website, I post it here for your consideration, feel free to comment.

RR

Hi Folks,

I would like to start my query by quoting a scripture:

(1 Corinthians 11:19) ‘. . . For there must also be *sects among YOU, that the persons approved may also become manifest among YOU.’ – NWT

Having been reading various articles on this site, and having recently begun reading Studies in The Scriptures – and various other writings by Pastor Russell – I felt I would like to ask a question or two.

There is a lot of talk about the ‘split’ in regard to the ‘Bible Students’ & Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now, in line with the above quoted verse, could it not be argued that, due to the growth and success of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have God’s blessing and backing because of their successful ministry?

It appears to me that the ‘Bible Students’ movement is all but dead. In England, where I live, I have never had a ‘Bible Student’ witness to me in any manner. According to Wicki the B/Students membership is in the 10′s of thousands while the Witnesses number into the millions.

What group really appears to be approved? Does it not seem to be the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are they not the ones who are witnessing about God’s Kingdom worldwide while the B/Students seem, as far as I can tell, to have made no advancement?

I can’t help but see God’s backing on the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

In the early years of the Bible Students they zealously proclaimed the Kingdom message – door to door – and using other means.

Apparently Sisters, and perhaps Brothers, would use a suitcase crammed with the Studies in The Scriptures to distribute these publications far and wide. What has happened to that zeal? Where are the Bible Students? It seems to me more likely to encounter a Mormon (Latter-Day Saint) than a Bible Student on the streets or at the door!

Could it not be the case that the few Bible Students today need to take heed of these words?

(Acts 5:38, 39) ‘. . . Do not meddle with these men, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.’

It appears that the Bible Students are a dwindling few – perhaps indicating that it is not of God; whereas the Jehovah’s Witnesses appear to have divine blessing, increase in growth in every way – not a scheme from men, but backed by God Almighty!

How answer YOU folks?

Thank you for your attention.

Yours faithfully,

S A

*Strong:

‘G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
hah’ee-res-is
From G138; properly a choice, that is, (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. (“heresy” is the Greek word itself.): – heresy [which is the Greekord itself], sect.’

[RR]

There is a lot of talk about the ‘split’ in regard to the ‘Bible Students’ & Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now, in line with the above quoted verse, could it not be argued that, due to the growth and success of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have God’s blessing and backing because of their successful ministry?

Well that's one way to look at it. However, what would you consider "success"?

It appears to me that the ‘Bible Students’ movement is all but dead. In England, where I live, I have never had a ‘Bible Student’ witness to me in any manner. According to Wicki the B/Students membership is in the 10′s of thousands while the Witnesses number into the millions.

That is because we have different priorities. Our goal is to "make our calling and election sure", that is first priority, witnessing is secondary. We're not out to save the world. I guess if we wanted too, we could invented a secondary group, offer them a house with the white picket fence if they just went door-to-door and sold our literature to make new converts. Burt that is not our goal.

Let me ask, how far do you think the Witnesses would have gotten had they not closed the door in 1935 and focused on an earthly class? How many anointed JW's are there in the world? About the same amount as there are Bible Students.

What group really appears to be approved? Does it not seem to be the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are they not the ones who are witnessing about God’s Kingdom worldwide while the B/Students seem, as far as I can tell, to have made no advancement?

I guess we need to define "advancement". We do what we can with what we have. The printed page, the internet, radio, television, etc. As stated, our goal is not to save the world, or to convert as many as we possible can. The purpose of witnessing is to find those prospective feet members of the body of Christ. Dropping a seed here, and there, where they fall and who will pick them up is in the Lord's hands.

I can’t help but see God’s backing on the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Well I guess if numbers and prosperity is the key to success, then I guess I should be a Catholic.

In the early years of the Bible Students they zealously proclaimed the Kingdom message – door to door – and using other means.

That of course is a historical revision of the modern day Watchtower. While Bible Students did Witness, it was more incidental witnessing, talking to friends, family and neighbors. Door-to-door work was not the norm, unless you were a colportuer (Pioneer).

Apparently Sisters, and perhaps Brothers, would use a suitcase crammed with the Studies in The Scriptures to distribute these publications far and wide. What has happened to that zeal? Where are the Bible Students? It seems to me more likely to encounter a Mormon (Latter-Day Saint) than a Bible Student on the streets or at the door!

As I stated, that work was limited to Colportuers (Pioneers). However, Bible Students do witness. We have several radio and television shows, we use the internet (dozens of websites, blogs, chatrooms and forums), we have dozens of journals, we produced countless tracts, booklets, books, Cd's, DVDs. We have public showings and discourses, we broadcast over the internet our conventions, so that any who wish too, can "attend" and hear and see the convention from the comfort of their homes. We also have online, teleconferences and video conference meetings for shut-ins and isolated brethren. We have local and international conventions (there isn't a month that goes by where a convention is not being held).

Could it not be the case that the few Bible Students today need to take heed of these words?

(Acts 5:38, 39) ‘. . . Do not meddle with these men, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.’

Hmmm, consider the Witnesses believe that they are sanctioned by God alone, and all others are of the devil,  I prefer this one .....  "49  And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50  And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." (Heb. 9:49, 50)

It appears that the Bible Students are a dwindling few – perhaps indicating that it is not of God; whereas the Jehovah’s Witnesses appear to have divine blessing, increase in growth in every way – not a scheme from men, but backed by God Almighty!

Isn't that what the Lord's people are suppose to be doing? Let me ask, what is holding up the full establishment of the Kingdom? Is it not for the last of the body of Christ to die in the flesh and be joined to her Lord in heaven, so that when the body is complete, 144,001, the mediatorial reign will begin? As Paul stated that "they without us should not be made perfect." (Heb. 11:40)

How answer YOU folks?

I just did!  

RR

[sister1977]

We do speak to people in different ways without having to go to their door. they usually come to us or our websites. Brother Wilmott with the Divine Plan of the ages says he gets many emails from those interested in the Divine plan.  I hear through many brothers& sisters during testimony time that they witness or talk to others while traveling or at the store. It all deepnds whom really is interested.
thanks for asking!

[Dupin]

The point is,

Quality over quantity.   StvAce, like our friend Vic is taught that numbers are proof of god's favor, in other words quantity.  Because we are so small in numbers  we therefore must not have god's favor.  Goliath looked down on little David with the same kind of contempt, look where it got him.    As RR has pointed out more than once, there is only one hope  where Christians are concerned (Eph. 4:4).  There is no authority in the NT for another.  The Witnesses get that one from an interpretation of a passage in Revelation.  God want's quality over quantity, that's why the number is so small.

RR and others have pointed out the way we witness, so I won't go over  that ground again.  We witness the way it has been done from the beginning in the first century, whatever way works best for the individual.  Each individual stands before God on his or her own and must give account for how they've used their talents  for the master.  So each one does their best to use their talents  in the most effective way for the Master.   We aren't cookie-cutter Christians.  

Dupin

[Broken2]

Well said my brother

[StvAce]

Thanks for the replies.

I may pick up certain points another time, but will try and stick to one topic at a time as it can be a bit much as some of these subjects are quite indepth!

Cheers.

S.A.

[victormr]

Dupin my friend,JW'S have helped millions to abandon bad practices that displeases Jehovah. These people now have a real purpose in life.So yes we have quantity and quality as Jehovah promised.

Now BS are not known for their teaching and for making disciples as Jesus commanded. One key factor for this is that BS are only few groups fighthing each other about doctrines. Jehovah's spirit do not operate where divisions and fighthing is the norm.

But hey,there are few individual among BS that are good people willing to please Jehovah. That is good. But they need to recognized that Jehovah is a God of knowledge and not stuck in time. He has share a great deal of understanding since the days of Russell and others.  It is clear that Jehovah has given this understanding to his servants,the JW'S.

These facts among others things clearly show who has Jehovah's blessings and support.

[sage41]

Gee Vic, the BS's I know went out of their way to witness to me about God's  Divine Plan; And, I've never been a witness to BS's "fighting" over doctrine, never!
The true sheep know their Lord-and He cares for them, it is an individual relationship with the Father and the Son, the LORD grants spiritual recognition and you become a new creation, a spiritual one...as you're weaved into Christ's body~your growth becomes apparent~you begin to reflect Jesus, the only begotten of GOD, you're taking on the character of Christ, and when you obey his commands, you are loved of GOD, the Father and you, too, become a son of GOD...
justification through the Son...acceptance by GOD, the Father~Jehovah...

[Dupin]

Now BS are not known for their teaching and for making disciples as Jesus commanded.

And yet we do both Vic.  Reputation, which is implied in your criticism, doesn't matter to us since we were told by our Lord we would be despised Matt 5:10-12.  So we could care less what we are "known' for, we simply do the Lords work as commanded.

One key factor for this is that BS are only few groups fighthing each other about doctrines. Jehovah's spirit do not operate where divisions and fighthing is the norm.

I'm encouraged you admit that much considering the party line is that we don't exist.  Look in the bible and you'll find you're quite wrong, that  dissension did exist in the first  century with little groups  "fighting" each other, or have you bothered to read  Paul's first letter to the Corinthians where he had to call  an entire congregation up short on that sort of thing or his many  complaints about  those who fought him, or John's going to hold Diotrephes, and elder to account for fighting against him.  yet god's spirit did operate among them, acting on those who genuinely followed  the example of Christ.  True Christians are targets from Satan now as they were then so there is no surprise some fight.

It is not clear Jehovah has given clear understanding to the JWs.  I believe that to be a fact.  Number prove nothing my dear friend.    That, unfortunately is something  you have yet to see.

Dupin

[victormr]

Dupin again,JW'S have helped millions to abandon bad practices that displeases Jehovah. These people now have a real purpose in life.So yes we have quantity and quality as Jehovah promised.

Consider this:
Unity Maintained
Of course, believers in the first century were imperfect, and situations developed that challenged their unity. For example, Acts 6:1-6 relates that a difference arose between Jewish Christians who spoke Greek and those who spoke Hebrew. Those speaking Greek felt that they were being discriminated against. Once the apostles were informed about the matter, however, it was attended to swiftly and fairly. Later, a question of doctrine led to controversy regarding the obligations of non-Jews in the Christian congregation. A decision was made based on Bible principles, and this decision was uniformly accepted.—Acts 15:1-29.

These examples show that disagreements did not lead to ethnic divisions or to unyielding doctrinal disunity in the first-century Christian congregation. Why not? Because the unifying factors—love for Jehovah, faith in Jesus Christ, self-sacrificing love for one another, acceptance of the guidance of the holy spirit, a common understanding of Bible teachings, and a readiness to change one’s conduct—were powerful enough to keep the early congregation united and at peace.

United in Worship in Modern Times
Can unity be achieved in the same way today? Can these same factors still draw members of a faith together and enable them to be at peace with all races in all parts of the world? Yes, they can! Jehovah’s Witnesses are united in a worldwide brotherhood spanning more than 230 lands, islands, and territories. And they are united by the same factors that united Christians in the first century.

Foremost in contributing to the unity enjoyed by Jehovah’s Witnesses is their devotion to Jehovah God. This means that they strive to be loyal to him under all circumstances. Witnesses of Jehovah also exercise faith in Jesus Christ and in his teachings. These Christians show self-sacrificing love for fellow believers and preach the same good news of God’s Kingdom in all the lands where they are active. They are happy to talk about this Kingdom with people of all faiths, races, nationalities, and social groups. Jehovah’s Witnesses also remain neutral in the affairs of the world, which helps them to withstand the political, cultural, social, and commercial pressures that are so divisive among mankind. All Witnesses accept their obligation to promote unity by conducting themselves in harmony with Bible standards.

Unity Attracts Others
This unity has often aroused the interest of individuals who were not Witnesses. Ilse,* for instance, was once a Catholic nun in a convent in Germany. What attracted her to Jehovah’s Witnesses? Ilse said: “They are the best people I have ever met. They do not go to war; they do nothing to harm anyone. They want to help people to live happily on a paradise earth under God’s Kingdom.”

Then there is Günther, who was a German soldier stationed in France during the second world war. One day a Protestant priest held a religious service for the soldiers in Günther’s unit. The priest prayed for blessings, protection, and victory. After the service, Günther took up his position as a lookout. Through his binoculars, he observed enemy troops on the other side of the battle lines also attending a religious service conducted by a priest. Günther later noted: “Likely that priest also prayed for blessings, protection, and victory. I wondered how it was possible for Christian churches to be on opposing sides of the same war.” These impressions were etched on Günther’s memory. When he later came in contact with Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not participate in war, Günther became part of their worldwide brotherhood.

Ashok and Feema used to belong to an Eastern religion. In their home, they had a shrine to a god. When serious illness struck their family, they reexamined their religion. In conversations with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Ashok and Feema were impressed by the teachings of the Bible and by the love existing among the Witnesses. They are now zealous publishers of the good news of Jehovah’s Kingdom.

Ilse, Günther, Ashok, and Feema are united with millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a global brotherhood. They believe the Bible’s promise that the same factors that unite them in worship today will soon unite all obedient mankind. Then, there will be no further atrocities, disunity, and division in the name of religion. The whole world will be united in the worship of the true God, Jehovah.—Revelation 21:4, 5.

Appeared in The Watchtower  January 1, 2005

[sister1977]

Again biblestudents do help others. We might not be by the thousands like jw's or mainstream denominations, but we're there.
We do what we can to those really wanting to know the truth about scriptures. Many will seek for it, but very few will accept what  the scriptures really say. Also it's not about a governing body, its about us, the church following Christ,& having Christ as our saviour.

[RR]

Dupin again,JW'S have helped millions to abandon bad practices that displeases Jehovah.

Yep, only to exchange them for other bad practices

[Dupin]

And the point in all of that is what, Vic?

Really, you act like we do nothing.  Let me remind you that when the iron curtain came down we actually out numbered you folks in several of those countries, if numbers are what you want to look at.  i'm sure there are plenty of stories among us similar ot the ones you tout.  Unlike you JWs, though, we keep the Lord's admonition against blowing our own horns Matt. 6:2.

Think about it my friend.

Dupin

[RR]

Funny thing is, everytime I google "Jehovah's Witnesses", all I get is news of moving out of brooklyn, downsizing, pedophiles, child abuse. What do you get when you google "Bible Students"?

[victormr]

Funny thing is, everytime I google "Jehovah's Witnesses", all I get is news of moving out of brooklyn, downsizing, pedophiles, child abuse. What do you get when you google "Bible Students"?

Google this www.watchtower.org you will find:

Official Web Site of Jehovah’s Witnesses